Transcript · 文字實錄

馮欣：北京鐵路局預計，將有46萬旅客在1月19日，即春節前四天，從北京的各個車站出發，達到2012春運高峰。

Feng Xin: The Beijing Railway Bureau said they expect to have 460,000 passengers traveling from Beijing's stations on Jan 19, exactly four days before the Chinese New Year. The stations have reached their peak of the 2012 Chinese New Year transportation, or "chunyun" in Chinese.

從1月8日開始，春運將會持續到二月中旬。有人說，為期四十天的春運是每年世界上最大的人類遷徙。有上億人會乘坐火車翻山越嶺，與家人團聚歡慶春節。有的人在火車站晝夜排隊，只為買到一張火車票, 有的人則根本無法買到車票。

Starting from Jan 8, "chunyun" will last until mid-February. Some say the 40-day "chunyun" is the largest annual human migration on earth. Hundreds of millions of people travel across the country by train to reunite with their families for New Year celebrations. Some spend days and nights in line at the train station to get a single ticket, but others are never able to get on a train home.

與往年不同的是，今年乘客可以第一次通過網絡購買車票。但網絡購票系統多大程度上能緩解購票的壓力？再進一步探究：中國的春運如何成了一個問題？

What's new this year, however, is passengers can buy train tickets online for the first time. To what extent can the e-ticket system relieve the transportation stress? To go even further: How has China's "chunyun" become an issue?

記者：老家在哪里？

Reporter: Where are you from?

記者：在安徽

Reporter: Anhui.

旅客：徐州

Passenger: Xuzhou.

旅客：哈爾濱

Passenger: Harbin.

旅客：老家在江蘇

Passenger: I'm from Jiangsu province.

旅客：我老家在哈爾濱

Passenger: My hometown's Harbin.

旅客：我就是北京的，去他姨夫家，是青島

Passenger: I'm from Beijing. We're going to my cousin's in Qingdao.

記者：是怎么買到票的？

Reporter: How did you get your ticket?

旅客：剛來買的時候，就是先定，然后再過來拿。一開始的時候就想從網上直接定。但是網頁根本就刷不開，說無法進入，然后就跑到附近的代售點去定。

Passenger：I booked the ticket first and then came to pick it up at the station. At first, I wanted to book the ticket online, but I couldn't even open the webpage. So I went to a ticket agency nearby to book one.

旅客：代票窗口，在回龍觀。身份證都聚在一塊，一個人一個身份證，給他就能買到了。

Passenger: From a ticket agency in Huilongguan. We collected everyone's IDs, one ID for each ticket, and we got our tickets.

記者：您買到票了嗎？

Reporter：Have you got a ticket?

旅客：沒有

Passenger: No.

記者：為什么還沒有買到呢？

Reporter：Why?

旅客：反正我電話也打了，網也上了，都沒買著。我尋思上著來排隊，排隊窗口直接告訴我沒有票，我現在沒有辦法了。因為我媳婦還懷孕了，坐飛機還走不了，我現在都不知道怎么弄。

Passenger：I tried to buy by phone and online, but none worked. Then I thought maybe I could line up and buy ticket here at the train station, but the ticket office told me there were no tickets at all. I don't know what to do now. Since my wife is pregnant, we can't travel by plane. I have no idea what I am going to do next.

旅客：我們提前有八九天買的票。就是從賣票的網點買的

Passenger: We bought our tickets eight or nine days ahead from a ticket agency.

旅客：我是用了三個電話和兩臺電腦，兩臺電腦還是不同的網絡。

Passenger: I used three phones and two computers with different Internet service providers.

記者：如果讓你用一個詞來形容春運，你會用什么詞？

Reporter：How would you describe "chunyun" in one word?

旅客：人滿為患

Passenger：Packed.

旅客：說不出來

Passenger：Don't know how.

旅客：無奈了

Passenger：Helpless.

旅客：挺高興的

Passenger：Happy.

旅客：累

Passenger：Tired.

旅客：我覺得用什么詞都很難以形容。太糾結了，就用糾結來形容吧。

Passenger：I find no words can describe it. It's too tangled. You can just call it tangled.

馮欣：根據國家發改委的數據，今年的春運將會有31億人次出行，較去年增長9%。鐵道部也預計將會有2.35億人次在春運期間乘火車出行，較2011年增長6%。然而不僅僅是旅客需要面對運輸壓力，鐵路部門的工作人員也是如此。

Feng Xin：According to China's National Reform and Planning Commission, Chinese people will be making 3.1 billion trips during this year's "chunyun" – a 9 percent increase from last year. The Ministry of Railways also estimates 235 million people are traveling by train during the New Year travel rush – 6 percent more than 2011. But it's not only passengers who have to battle the transportation stress; those who work on trains face just as much pressure.

單是北京的火車站就臨時增加了7000余名員工參與春運工作。王選春是北京到平壤列車的車長，他經歷過31年的春運。

Beijing's train stations alone have temporarily added more than 7,000 staff members to work for the New Year travel rush. Wang Xuanchun is the conductor of a train from Beijing to Pyongyang. He has been working during "chunyun" for 31 years.

馮欣：在春運前您都要做哪些準備工作呢？

Feng Xin：How did you prepare for "chunyun"?

王選春：首先今年的春運和往年不一樣，一個實名制開始了。對于旅客來說，買票上網也很難，所以上來車以后，旅客怨氣很大，有時候跟我們發脾氣，我們主張乘務員不要發脾氣，首先旅客第一，咱們把旅客放在第一。班組要求每個職工發現老弱病殘都要主動去迎送。

Wang Xuanchun: There's something new about this year's "chunyun". An identification card is required for buying tickets. Honestly, it's pretty hard for passengers to buy a ticket online. So when they get on the train, they are frustrated. Sometimes they will lose their temper on us. We told our crew members not to get angry. Passengers are our priority. We asked our crew members when seeing someone in need to offer help immediately.

馮欣：孫劍的職務是列車機動人員，負責處理火車上各類緊急情況。

Feng Xin: Sun Jian works as a flexible crew member who is responsible for dealing with various emergencies on the train.

馮欣：在春運期間，您作為工作人員最擔心發生什么？

Feng Xin：As a crew member, what's your biggest concern during "chunyun"?

孫劍：最擔心的，像我們這輛車就是車門還有上水口。車運行一晚上，必須得保證有水，旅客喝水這是最大的。因為這車是往東北去的，冬天氣溫比較冷，外面注水口注完之后，它就要凍。一凍之后，水壓頂不上去了，就全部凍死了。

Sun Jian: I'm most concerned about the doors and the water tank's opening. We have to make sure there's enough water for passengers at night. This is most important..The train is heading to Northeast China, and it is freezing there. When we finish filling the tank with water, the opening will freeze very quickly. Once it's frozen, the water pressure will be low, and the water will freeze.

馮欣：據鐵道部的數字，在春運的四十天中，每天將會有兩千多對列車運行，比平常多出近300對，但是，為什么春運還是如此之難呢？我們采訪了兩位多年參與中國主要鐵路工程的學者。我們從最基本的問題開始：春運到底是什么？

Feng Xin: According to the Ministry of Railways, more than 2,000 pairs of trains are operating daily during the 40-day "chunyun" – almost 300 more than usual. But why is "chunyun" still a big hassle? We talked to two scholars who have been taking part in China's major railway projects for decades. We began with the most basic question: What exactly is "chunyun"?

韓寶明：春運在鐵路上有一個專門的期限，從春節之前的15天還有之后的25天，總共40天的時間，鐵路(部門)采取一個特殊的運輸組織方案，要最大限度地去滿足旅客運輸的需求，那么在這個期間會把大量的貨物列車停開，保證旅客列車的運輸。

Han Baoming: "Chunyun" is a specific time period in railway transportation. It starts from 15 days before the Chinese New Year and ends 25 days after. It lasts for 40 days. The railway department adopts a special plan for transportation organization to maximize its transportation capacity. So during the peak time many cargo trains are suspended to guarantee the operation of passenger trains.

馮欣：那我們大家都在講這個春運難，這個難在什么地方呢？

Feng Xin：We all say that "chunyun" is a big hassle. What's difficult about it?

韓寶明：難主要是難在運能和需求之間的矛盾，因為我們現在既使是做了這樣的調整，鐵道部加開了幾百趟臨客列車，我們每天的運輸能力也只有700萬多人，極端的高峰會到800萬人。700萬人的供給和短時間內上億人的需求，它是無法去比擬的。

Han Baoming: The main difficulty is the conflict between transportation capacity and demand. Though we have made adjustments, the Ministry of Railways has temporarily added hundreds of passenger trains. The maximum capacity is only 7 million passengers per day, or 8 million during extreme rush time. To meet hundreds of millions of people's demands, the capacity is just too small.

馮欣：為什么鐵路是特別突出的一塊呢？

Feng Xin: And why is railway transportation a particularly difficult problem？

韓寶明：因為春節正好是趕在冬季，公路運輸的波動性很大。如果是某個地區下雪，或者是出現一些異常天氣，公路運輸無法正常進行的時候，大家把期望值就全部轉移到鐵路上，可是鐵路是無法承擔這么大的運量的。我們現在的運量結構，大概全國客運市場中公路應該占到90%左右，鐵路占9%，航空占到1%左右，當然水運在局部地區它有一定的運量。在這個量級比例上，可以想象，如果出現在08年出現的這種南方冰雪天氣，公路無法運行的時候，那么鐵路是無論如何滿足不了要求的。

Han Baoming: Since the Chinese New Year falls in winter, road transportation presents many uncertainties. If it snows in some areas, or the weather conditions are bad, road transportation cannot function normally. So people would turn to railways, but the railway capacity is not big enough. Let's look at the structure of our transportation capacity: Road transportation accounts for 90 percent nationwide; railways account for 9 percent, and airline 1 percent. Water transportation, of course, also contributes a certain capacity. Based on this proportion, you can imagine that if the 2008 snow disaster in South China happens again, and the road transportation cannot function well, it's impossible for railways to meet transportation demand.

馮欣：剛才您講到這個運能的缺口，那每天大概有多少人是買不到火車票回家的？這個您有沒有估計過？

Feng Xin: You just mentioned the capacity gap. Can I ask how many people cannot get a ticket home everyday? Have you ever estimated this?

韓寶明：這種需求是彈性的，有人可能說想回家探親，買不到票他就不回去了。這種需求，說實話，還真沒有一個機構去給它做一個估算。對每條線也不一樣，不同的方向有不一樣的需求，不能一概而論全國缺多少，我能（提供）多少。

Han Baoming: The demand is flexible. Some may just not go home, if he or she cannot get a ticket. To be frank, no one has ever estimated it. And every railway line is different. There are different demands on different lines. You cannot generally say how large the nationwide shortage is and how much capacity can be provided.

馮欣：那春運難現象到底是怎么形成的？

Feng Xin: And how has "chunyun" become a problem?

韓寶明：剛才是講的需求，現在就要說供給。比如說，對于一個企業來說，它如果按最大值去配備它的生產能力，它在平常就會閑置。比如說，一個長途客運公司，正常（情況下）我就配100輛車，這100輛車你全部投入使用，沒有檢修，那它也滿足不了要求。那有可能，打個比方說，應該是到180輛車，那180輛車，它平常的客流沒那么大，有80輛車就在家里放著，人員也得養著。這種情況，從經濟方面，從企業方面，也是個難題。

Han Baoming: We just talked about demand; now I am going to talk about supply. Let's say, for a company, if it designs its production capacity to its maximum, it will be a waste in normal days. Say a long-distance bus company has 100 buses during normal time. If the 100 buses are all put in use without maintenance, the demand cannot be met anyway. Maybe the company has to have 180 buses, for example, to meet the demand. While the demand is not that big on ordinary days, the 80 buses will have to stay at home. And the company has to pay for the workers. So it is a puzzle both in cost-efficiency and the industry.

馮欣：運能和效益的關系也許世界通用，那中國又特殊在哪呢？

Feng Xin: Whereas the relationship between cost-efficiency and travel capacity might be universal, what's unique about China?

馮欣：每個國家都有自己的節假日, 為什么中國的春運被稱作世界上最大的人類遷徙？

Feng Xin: Every country has its own holidays and festivals, why is China's New Year transportation called the world's largest human mobilization in a year?

趙堅：中國的人口是世界上最多的，發展速度也是最快的，所以越來越多的農民進城務工尋求機會，這是一個原因。另外一個原因是城市化，在中國，我們對農村人定居在城市，比如“戶口”的限制，這讓很多人很難定居在城市。在春節期間，他們就會回家鄉與家人團聚，這是城市化的問題。

Zhao Jian: China's population is the largest in the world. And the development speed is number one in the world. So more people, especially the farmers, will go out to choose new opportunities. So this is one reason. Another is the urbanization problem. In China, we have many constraints on people to live in the city. Because we have "hukou", for example. So, this constraint makes some people cannot live in the city. During the Chinese New Year, they will go home to reunite with their other family members. This is one problem of urbanization.

另一個問題是鐵路運輸能力，中國越來越多地建設了高速鐵路，而不是既有鐵路（普通鐵路）。春節期間，很多人需要乘坐普通列車，因為它更便宜。高鐵是為商務人士或旅游者而建的，很多人不需要高鐵或高速，他們甚至認為普通列車太貴了。在珠江三角洲，有的人甚至騎摩托回家。

Another is the railway transportation capacity. China has built more high-speed rails but not conventional rails. During the Chinese New Year, many people demand the conventional train, because it's cheaper. High-speed railways were built for businessmen or travelers. So, (many people) don't want to use the high-speed rail. They even think the conventional train is too expensive. Some people, especially in the Pearl River Delta, go home by motorcycle.

馮欣：今年春運首逢網絡購票，您認為在多大程度上，網絡購票能緩解春運期間購票的壓力？

Feng Xin: This year is the first year where people can book tickets online during the Chinese New Year transportation. To what extent, do you think this approach will relieve the pressure of buying tickets during that busy time?

趙堅：我認為有一些作用，但是很有限。問題的關鍵不是票而是運能，因為在這些線路上沒有足夠的列車，沒有足夠的票。即使人們可以在網上或訂票點買票，情況是一樣的。所以網購的作用非常有限。

Zhao Jian: It has some function, but I think it is very limited. The problem right now is not the tickets but capacity, because there are no trains operating on this line. It's because there are not enough tickets for people to buy. So even (though) people can buy online or book from the ticket office, it's the same. It can solve some problems, but it is very limited.

在我們現有的鐵路上，每天每條線單向最多能運行150次列車，不能再多了。

On our railway, each day, in one direction, can only operate –the maximum capacity is 150 trains operating on it. You cannot operate too many.

馮欣：為什么呢？

Feng Xin: And why?

趙堅：因為每輛列車之間必須有一些時間間隔，如果間隔過小，列車就會相撞，所以不能運行再多的列車。

Zhao Jian: Because there must be some time gap between each train. If the time difference is too small, they will crash. So, you cannot operate more trains on it.

馮欣：根據這個說法，光是增加列車的數目，并不能從根本上解決運能不足的問題，那為什么這個問題多年來一直沒有解決呢？

Feng Xin: It seems that adding more trains cannot fundamentally increase China's railway transportation capacity, but why hasn't the problem been solved over the years?

韓寶明：實際上，近十年，中國的交通發展是最快的，鐵路我們現在已經達到了9萬多公里，原來的數據一直是7萬多，增加了2萬公里。每年鐵路的客運能力以10%的速度增加，不是說我們不努力，而是這種需求太強勁，所以造成現在這種矛盾還是存在。

Han Baoming: In fact, China has made tremendous development in transportation over the last 10 years. We have built more than 90,000 kilometers of railways, whereas we used to have only 70,000 kilometers. Railway transportation capacity makes a 10 percent increase every year. It's not that we are not working hard enough, but the demand is too high. So we still have the conflict between capacity and demand.

馮欣：那這種矛盾有沒有解決的可能性？

Feng Xin: Is it possible to address such conflict?

韓寶明：我想要解決這個問題，確實是需要從國家，行業和我們民眾幾個層面分別去進行努力。第一個層面，對于這個春節的假期，其實最難的就是最后幾天的這個放假需求。我記得在前幾年我們放假都是從初一才開始放，三十還要上班。就是說，這些想回家的人，他就必須在最后一天才能出行，現在把這個假期延伸到了三十。如果說國家的假期進一步優化，比如說前二后五，或者說國家將來有進一步考慮對公共假期的數量進行調整的時候，應該優先增加春節的時間，這樣會使得春節運輸之間的矛盾的集中點，給它舒緩。

Han Baoming: To solve the problem, I think we need to work on several aspects, including the country, industry and public. Firstly, the toughest days during "chunyun" are the last few days before the new year. I remember we used to start our holiday on New Year's Day. We still had to work on New Year's Eve. That is to say, those who want to go home cannot leave work until the last day before the new year. Now we start the holiday on New Year's Eve. What if we further optimize our holidays, like we start holidays two days before New Year's Day, or the government prioritizes New Year holidays when considering adjusting the number of public holidays? This would relieve the concentration of transport stress during Chinese New Year.

韓寶明：第二個層面，就是鐵路的客運專線建設和高速鐵路的建設。從08年第一條線開通到現在，已經有十幾條線投入了運營，但是現在的線路都是局部的，沒有成網的，那么在這個條件下，它能發揮的作用還是比較有限的，如果在今后的一到兩年內，客運專線幾個主要的干線能夠連網，實現跨線運輸，而大量的客車在這個時候可以開行，那么對春節運輸是一個非常好的消息。

Han Baoming: The second aspect has to do with our development in high-speed railway. We have put more than a dozen lines in operation since 2008. But all the lines are separate, not in a network. Therefore, their effects are still limited. If we can, in the next a couple of years, connect the few major lines into a network and make cross-line transportation a reality, most passenger trains will be able to operate on these lines. This would be a very good approach to "chunyun".

馮欣：我聽到一種批評的聲音，說高速鐵路面向的主要是收入比較高的人群，能夠負擔得起的這個高速列車車票的人。但是大部分選擇用火車出行的人一般都是中低端收入的人群，比如說農民工、學生等等。那么正因為如此，高速列車并不是很吸引這個龐大的人群，那么對這個觀點您怎么看？

Feng Xin: I heard a critical voice that high-speed rail (transportation) is aimed at high-income people –those who can afford high-speed train tickets. However, most people who choose to commute by train are mid- to low-income groups, like migrant workers and students. Because of this, high-speed trains do not appeal to these major groups. What do you think of this?

韓寶明：您說的，確實高速鐵路的建設成本非常高，那么在鐵路經營方面，它的票價定的相對比既有線的要高。中等收入這部分人群，他首先考慮的是能不能有票，至于票價，尤其在春節期間，假如說高鐵有票，那么既有線的票不夠，他還是會往這個方向去選。所以高鐵的能力釋放以后，它會使得相當一部分人——原來沒有辦法，只能坐既有鐵路的火車的他轉向（高鐵）。轉向高鐵以后，無形中也給既有鐵路的線路上多出來一些票，可以供其他人去買。我們一直在講，交通運輸里邊，哪怕是你調整一塊錢，也一定會使得客流發生轉移。

Han Baoming: Like you said, the cost of high-speed railways is very high, so their tickets are more expensive than conventional trains. For mid-income groups, the first thing they consider is whether there are tickets. Price – especially during "chunyun" if there are no conventional train tickets but only high-speed ones, (people) will still choose the latter. Therefore, once high-speed railways release their transportation capacity, a considerable number of people, who could only catch conventional trains, will turn to high-speed trains. Because of the shift, there will be more tickets available on conventional lines for others to buy. In the field of transportation, even if you just adjust it by one yuan, it will still shift passenger flow.

馮欣：長期來看，學者們提出了解決春運問題不同的辦法。

Feng Xin:Yet in the long run, scholars propose different solutions to solving the "chunyun" problem.

趙堅：有兩個辦法。一個是允許農民和他們的家庭在城市定居，比如在北京、上海、廣州這樣的城市，加快城市化的進程，這是一個辦法。另外一個辦法是建設更多的既有線路，即時速不超過200公里的線路，（因為）普通列車不能在高速鐵路上運行，而高鐵的運能又沒有普通列車大。到2020年，我認為中國應該至少建成16萬公里鐵路，但是根據國家的規劃只有13萬（應為12萬）公里，這是不夠的。

Zhao Jian：Two methods. One is to allow the peasants and their family to live in the big cities, for example, Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou. So the urbanization increases the size of the city. This is one answer. Another is to build more conventional lines. The speed standard is no more (than) 200 kilometers per hour. The conventional passenger trains cannot operate on the high-speed rails, and the transportation capacity of high-speed rails is less than the conventional railways. (By) 2020, I think China should at least build 160,000 kilometers, but, according to the government planning, (it plans to build) only about 130,000（correction: 120,000）kilometers. It's not enough for China.

韓寶明：利用社會資源，社會力量，把運力不足的矛盾（進行）有效的補充。去年有一部分企業, 用單位自己的車輛，把相對集中的一些民工給送到家鄉，然后承諾等你們過了十五想回來的時候，我再來接你們。但是如果說，我們把這個組織（一下），不是一個單位去送，而是把這個單位、多個單位的車輛向多個地區去輸送，組織好。

Han Baoming: We can use community resources to shorten the gap between transportation capacity and demand. Last year, some companies gave their migrant workers rides home with their own vehicles. They promised to pick them up after the 15th day of the New Year. What if we organize many companies rather than one? What if we give migrant workers rides home to different destinations rather than one?

Archive · 往期

Digest China: Year 2011 in quotes
《解析中國》：2011語錄

We put together 10 most-quotable interview segments to "digest" the year 2011.
《解析中國》年終特輯——十段最精彩的訪談語錄。

To help, or not to help?

When you see a person badly injured in the middle of the road, what do you do? That decision is becoming more difficult in China after some people who offered help were falsely accused of injuring the person in need.

Can law protect your mental health?

How do psychiatrists maintain their own mental health? And what do they think of the drafted Mental Health Law? For this week's Digest China, host Feng Xin invites two psychiatrists to the studio.

On the spectrum: China's mental health conditions

The National People's Congress just finished collecting opinions on passing China's first Mental Health Law. How is China's mental health in general? And how the legislation might impact you?

Should China "rescue" Europe?

Europe is experiencing a financial crisis. Many people have turned their eyes to China, but what does this crisis have to do with China? What role is China playing? For this week's Digest China, we come to Brussels to meet two guests.

Digest China: Powerful kids - Part 2

Last week we visited a Chinese elementary school in Beijing and talked to a few 9- to 10-year-old children about taking power as student leaders at school. For this week, we visit an international school and see what children do differently.

Powerful kids - Part 1

Having a system of a class monitor and some little ministers in charge of different aspects of school life is common in China. The host Feng Xin and her producer come to one school in Beijing and talk to some powerful kids.

"Micro-charity" serves up free lunch

Nearly 10,000 children who live in China's poor countryside will no longer have to starve when they go to school, thanks to one man's micro-blogging, which turned into a nationwide charity program in just a few days.