文字實錄 · Transcript

自5月15日起，北京警方將展開為期100天的專項行動集中清理在華非法居留、就業、以及入境的外國人, 這一消息來自于北京市公安局。據媒體報道，一些地區如成都、吉林延邊都展開了類似的行動。這些行動究竟是個別現象，還是有著深層的社會、文化和法律背景？讓我們先聽聽大家怎么說吧。

Starting on May 15, the Beijing police will serve in a 100-day campaign to crackdown on foreigners who live, work and travel in China illegally. That's according to the Beijing Public Security Bureau. Media report that officials in Chengdu, the capital of Sichuan province, and Yanbian in Jilin province, are rolling out similar actions. Are these actions isolated moves or rooted in a deeper social, cultural and legislative context? Let's hear what people say first.

受訪者：我聽說他們檢查得更細致了，比如（檢查）街上外國人的護照、簽證。我目前才在北京居住了兩星期, 我父母已經告訴我，到公安局辦理（手續）。

Respondent: I just heard that they check better passport and visa (of) foreign people on the streets. I've been living in Beijing (for) two weeks, and my mother and father already told me to go to the police (to complete all my paperwork).

記者：這次行動對你的生活有什么影響？

Reporter: Has the action affected your life in any way?

受訪者：沒什么影響。因為我是一個學生，我大部分時間都在學校里，而且我不怎么離開學校。

Respondent: I don't think, really. Because I'm a student, I spend all my time at my school, and I don't go a lot of times out of the school.

受訪者：沒有，我還沒有發現什么變化。不過，我確實隨身攜帶我的護照。我以前不這樣做，但是現在開始這么做了。

Respondent: No, I haven't seen anything yet. Actually, I do carry my passport. I didn't use to do that, but now I actually do.

受訪者：我覺得沒什么影響。我總是隨身帶著我的證件。

Respondent: It doesn't influence (me) in any way. I think I always bring my documents with me.

受訪者：首先，我要去警察局注冊登記我的詳細住址。如果我離開現在的住所，我必須告知警察我要搬到哪里去。

Respondent: First, I have to register with the police to tell exactly where I'm living. And if I leave the place I'm living at, I have to tell the police and notify them where I'm going to be staying.

記者：您對這次行動有什么看法？

Reporter: What do you think about their action?

受訪者：我不太明白為什么這一次要比以往嚴厲。

Respondent: I don't really understand why (they're doing it) now. It's more severe than before.

受訪者：我覺得情況不是很好。這是我在中國的第二年，之前從來沒有人查過我的證件，有時候隨身攜帶證件很麻煩，因為你會忘記。

Respondent: I think it's a very difficult condition. I'm in my second year in China, but they never asked me about my papers, and sometimes it's so difficult to bring your papers with you, because you'll forget it.

受訪者：我覺得很正常，因為在我的國家法國，警察也經常檢查移民的證件，在中國不是經常見到警察。通常在法國，到處都是警察，但這里不是這樣。

Respondent: I think it's pretty normal, because in my country in France, police also check immigrants' papers. I don't see police much in China. Usually in France, we have a lot of police everywhere, but in here, I don't see so much.

受訪者：我覺得只要不太過分就可以，只要不是隨時隨地地檢查就沒有問題。

Respondent: I think it's OK if it's not too much, all the time on the corner of the street. I think (it's OK).

受訪者：我覺得這樣做是正確的，我完全贊同這個行動。

Respondent: I think it's the right thing to do. I totally agree with it.

受訪者：我覺得有點過了，不能因為一個人的所作所為就指責所有外國人。為了一個人的行為就追查所有外國人，這有點不公平。

Respondent: I think it's a bit excessive, maybe, to blame all the foreigners for the action of one person. Tracking down all the foreigners for the action of one person just seems not fair.

記者：你認為這次行動背后的原因是什么？

Reporter: What do you think to be the reason behind it?

受訪者：我完全不知道。倒是有各種各樣的傳聞，但是根據我所讀到的，這次行動只是政府想要檢查（外國人的）證件，他們想要徹底打擊非法移民。

Respondent: I have no idea. There are different rumors on it, but as far as I read, it's just (that) the officials want to check the documents and really want to bring down illegal immigration.

受訪者：我想可能和最近一個英國人在街上企圖強奸中國女孩的事件有關，現在他們只是想更細地檢查在華外國人。

Respondent: I guess it (is related to) this recent event of this British guy trying to rape a girl on the street, and now they just want to check better about foreigners coming in China.

記者：您對這個行動怎么看呢？

Reporter: What do you think about the action?

受訪者：我覺得應該支持，我挺支持的。

Respondent: I support the action.

受訪者：我覺得外國人在中國算是很好的，但是可能有一些人簽證過期。這邊如果對他沒有限制的話，可能他們會做出一些違反中國法律的事，他們也不懂，所以我覺得會危害我們。

Respondent: I think it's good that foreigners live in China, but some people's visas might have expired. If there is no regulation, they might do something against China's laws, they might not even be aware of, but they would harm us.

受訪者：我覺得外國人在中國也就是普通的人群。我們就只能把他當作一個進入到中國的人而已。

Respondent: I think foreigners in China are just ordinary people. We should treat them just as regular people as we are.

受訪者：我覺得每一個國家都會采取一些對于在本國滯留的外國人一些合法的行(動)。

Respondent: I think every country is legitimized to have certain regulations on its foreign population.

記者：那你認為北京警方這次行動背后的原因是什么？

Reporter: What do you think to be the reason behind the action?

受訪者：應該是出于目前社會的壓力吧。現在社會出現的事也挺多的。現在有些“三非”的人在這沒有固定的收入，也沒有固定工作，有些在這來搗亂社會治安，所以我挺支持這事的。

Respondent: I think it comes from our social anxiety. There are so many things happening in the society. Some illegal immigrants don't have stable income and jobs. Some ended up disturbing our social order, so I support the action.

受訪者：前一段時間（發生在）宣武區強奸中國女子的事，其實很多時候你別把它看成是外國人（做的事）， 它其實就是一個很普通的案件。很多中國人感覺很憤慨，其實我覺得憤怒的并不是外國人對我們中國人如何，很多時候憤怒的是對政府的一種失望，覺得中國人可能沒有人家外國人有權利。

Respondent: Talking about the rape of a Chinese woman in Xuanwumen area, let's not see it as something done by a foreigner. It's actually an ordinary case. Many Chinese feel outraged, but I don't think they were furious with what foreigners did to Chinese but were disappointed in the government. They feel Chinese citizens don't enjoy as much privilege as foreigners.

受訪者：我覺得那個是事情的一個誘因吧。現在這個事情發生了，可能大家對于在中國的很多外國人非法居留或者從事一些非法活動這個問題引起了更深的關注。

Respondent: I think that incident is a trigger. It makes people more aware of issues of some foreigners staying in China illegally or violating Chinese laws.

受訪者：我覺得這還和國際的大環境有關系，比如說有些人可能是間諜。

Respondent: I think it's linked to the international environment. For example, some people might be spies.

記者：那您平常對在北京生活的外國人印象怎么樣？

Reporter: What is your impression of foreigners living in Beijing?

受訪者：我認為總體我接觸的外國人都還（可以）。我身邊的還好一些吧。

Respondent: In general, I think the foreigners I know are OK. I think the foreigners I know are OK.

受訪者：其實我接觸到大多的外國人還是挺友好的。

Respondent: Most of the foreigners I meet are actually quite friendly.

受訪者：層次也是參差不齊。大部分都是好的，但是有一些可能在國外就是比較混的。

Respondent: They vary. Most of them are good, but some might have been hooligans even before they came to China.

通過街訪，我們發現很多人在被問起他們猜想警方行動的原因時都提到了一個事件，讓我們再回顧一下這個事件。

From the street interviews, we found many people mentioned one incident when asked what they think to be the reason behind police's crackdown. A recap of the event might give you more ideas.

根據中國日報報道，5月8日晚，一名英籍游客涉嫌在北京宣武門地區當街猥褻一名中國女子。這個男子的行為被拍攝下來并放到了網上，視頻顯示這名女子放聲大哭說她并不認識這個外國男人。幾個中國男子在聽到呼救后前來援救，他們打了這個英國人，而他隨即躺在了馬路中央。上百萬人看了這個視頻，很多人在網上表達了他們的憤慨。

According to China Daily reports, a British tourist was suspected of sexually assaulting a Chinese woman on Xuanwumen Dajie in Beijing at about 11 pm on May 8. The man's actions were caught on video and then posted online. The video shows the woman crying out in distress and saying she doesn't know the foreign man. A few Chinese men came to the woman's aid after they heard her calls. They beat the British tourist, who was then lying in the middle of the road. Millions of people watched the video, and tens of thousands have expressed their outrage online.

一周后，北京警方展開了為期100天的專項行動，在外國人聚居的地點檢查一些人的護照和居留證件。兩個事件相隔如此之短，很難讓人不把它們聯系起來。

A week later, the Beijing police issued the 100-day campaign to check passports and accommodation registration in areas where foreigners gather in Beijing. The interval between the two events was so short that many couldn't help think one caused the other.

但是據中國日報報道，警察否認了這種說法，說這次清理行動僅僅是為了打擊外國人非法工作、居留以及入境等問題。而且警察說，此事件中的英籍男子確有合法簽證，但是，為什么要在現在清理呢？非法移民問題在中國究竟有多嚴重？讓我們來看一些數據。

But China Daily reported that the police denied that idea and said the crackdown only aims at tackling the illegal employment of foreigners, overstaying and illegal entry. After all, the police said the suspected British man involved in the incident does have a valid visa. But why start the crackdown now? How serious is the problem of illegal immigrants in China? Let's look at some numbers.

據公安部統計，2011年，外國人入境中國共計5400多萬人次。他們來到中國的目的各不相同，有旅游、會議商務、就業、學習以及探親訪友。據北京警方的數據，平均每天有20萬外國人居住停留在北京。

According to the Ministry of Public Security, foreign visitors made about 54 million trips to the Chinese mainland in 2011. They came to China for various purposes like tourism, business and conference, employment, study and reuniting with friends and families. Beijing alone hosts an average of 200,000 foreigners per day. That's according to the city police.

2011年，外國人來華人數居前十位的國家是：韓國、日本、俄羅斯、美國、馬來西亞、新加坡、越南、蒙古、菲律賓，以及加拿大。中國最近一次的人口普查顯示，中國接收外國人最多的前十位地區是：廣東、上海、北京、江蘇、福建、云南、浙江、山東、遼寧以及廣西壯族自治區。

The 10 countries that sent the most visitors to China in 2011 were: the Republic of Korea, Japan, Russia, the United States, Malaysia, Singapore, Vietnam, Mongolia, the Philippines and Canada. China's latest census shows the top 10 Chinese regions that receive most foreign residents are: Guangdong province, Shanghai municipality, Beijing municipality, Jiangsu province, Fujian province, Yunnan province, Zhejiang province, Shandong province, Liaoning province and Guangxi Zhuang autonomous region.

1980年外國人入境74萬人次，這個數字到2011年增長了近36倍達到2700多萬人次。1980年，在華居住超過六個月的外國人有近2萬人, 到2011年增長到60多萬, 增長了大約30倍。這些常住居民主要為三資企業工作人員、留學生、教師、外企駐華機構代表及其親屬。截至2011年底，約有4700個外國人獲得中國永久居住權。

About 740,000 foreigners entered China in 1980; the number grew 36 times that – to over 27 million – in 2011. In 1980, there were 20,000 foreigners that lived in China for more than six months. That number went up to 600,000 in 2011, representing a 30-time increase. These long-term residents were mainly employees of foreign-funded enterprises, students, teachers, and representatives of foreign companies as well as their relatives. As of the end of 2011, about 4,700 foreign residents held China's permanent residence.

1995年，中國警方查處了1萬人次“三非”外國人，即非法居留、就業及入境的外國人，這個數字到2011年時翻了1倍。公安部統計，大部分簽證過期后非法居留的外國人由于不了解中國法律而違法，而非法入境者大部分來自鄰國，非法就業的主要集中在教學、演出和家政等領域。

Chinese police dealt with 10,000 foreigners living, working and travelling illegally in 1995. That number doubled in 2011.The ministry reported most illegal immigrants who outstayed their visas in China were not aware of China's law. Those who entered illegally mainly came from neighboring countries. And those who took jobs illegally were mainly working as teachers, performers or housekeepers.

當這些數據看似顯示了中國逐漸成為一個熱門的國際移民目的地，但是聯合國人口司的數據則顯示了一個更大的格局。

While these numbers seem to show China is getting more and more popular as a destination for international migration, the United Nations Population Division presents a bigger picture.

截至2009年，國際移民仍然集中在少數歐洲國家、北美和澳大利亞，移民占據了這些國家總人口的7％到20％。相比之下，中國只有不到0.1％的國際移民。

As of 2009, international migrants were still concentrated in a limited number of countries in Europe, North America and Australia. Migrants in these countries took up 7 to 20 percent of their total population, whereas China's migrants account for less than 0.1 percent.

一方面，在華的外國人數迅速增長，另一方面，中國現行的出入境管理法是1985年通過的目前已經有些落后。正因為如此，國務院向全國人大遞交了新出入境法的草案，人大于2011年12月進行了第一次審議，并于今年4月進行了第二次審議。

While the number of China's foreign visitors and residents is growing significantly, China's current law on exit and entry, which was passed in 1985, seems quite outdated. Because of this, the State Council submitted a draft law to the National People's Congress for its first hearing in December 2011. The NPC just had its second hearing this April.

立法者在草案中加入了一些條款，例如外國人進入中國需要提供他們的生物特征識別數據；如果在中國停留超過180天需要取得居留證件；這份草案特別增加了關于“三非”的內容：規范在中國非法居住、就業以及入境的外國人。

Lawmakers added a number of items in the draft. For example, foreigners entering China are required to provide their biometric data. They need to get a residence permit if staying in China for longer than 180 days. The draft law made specific regulations on the "three illegals", referring to those who live, work and travel in China illegally.

立法者還加入了綠卡制度或者說，永久居住權, 并且明確了外國人獲得中國永久居住權的條件。我們從社會、歷史以及法律的角度了解了在華的外國人，那么這些數字又意味著什么呢？外國人是否愿意冒著非法居留的危險來中國就業或是尋找商機呢？如果是，這是否標志中國正崛起成為機會的土壤？我們在演播室電話采訪了劉國福，他是一名研究移民法的學者，曾經參與了人大的立法過程。

Lawmakers also added "green cards", or provisions for permanent residence, to the statue by specifying the criteria one has to meet. We've looked at foreign visitors in China from social, historical and legal perspectives. But what do all these numbers mean? Are foreigners willing to risk illegal residence in China to pursue job and business opportunities? And, if so, is that a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? We called Liu Guofu from our studio. He is a scholar on immigration law and took part in the NPC's legislation process as a consultant.

馮欣：劉老師，我聽到一種說法，三非外國人日益增多也反映了中國逐漸崛起成為機會的土壤，那您對這個觀點怎么看？

Feng Xin: Mr Liu, I heard a view that the growing number of incidents involving illegal immigrants can partly be seen as a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity.What's your opinion?

劉國福：它這個說對了一半。外國人來中國肯定是因為中國的機會多他（們）愿意來。這是一方面，所以我覺得這一點說得是對的。基數大了，產生問題的可能性也大，“三非”問題就多起來了。另外一方面我覺得是更重要的，就是我們對外國人的管理沒跟上，這個邏輯是什么？并不是說外國人來就一定會出現“三非”。

I think it's only half correct. Foreigners definitely come to China because there are a lot of opportunities here. That's one side of the story. As the base number of immigrants increases, the chances of problems grow, too. So does the problem of illegal immigrants. But what's more important, as far as I see it, is that our administration of foreigners is inadequate. What I mean is that the increase of foreigners doesn't necessarily result in "three illegals".

馮欣：怎么講，沒跟上？

Feng Xin: What do you mean by "inadequate"?

劉國福：為什么有很多非法入境？比如說邊檢的問題。還有他為什么能夠敢于非法滯留呢？他不知道他簽證到期是什么時候嗎？他既然知道還敢于違法，說明了什么？說明我們管理有問題，反過來就是說處罰可能是不到位的或者說查處是不全面的，他有僥幸的心理。

Liu Guofu: Let's say illegal entry. Why are there so many cases? It might be due to our border inspection. Also, why do some dare to stay in China illegally? Don't they know when their visas will expire? If they know and still dare to challenge the law, what does this imply? It implies there are problems with our administration. In other words, the punishment might not be severe enough or the inspection is incomplete. And therefore, some think they can get away.

馮欣：那您認為我們國家對外國人來華的政策近十年來有什么變化？

Feng Xin: In your opinion, how has China's policy on foreigners changed over the last 10 years?

劉國福：總體上來講應該在不斷地放松。08年有一個引進海外高層次人才的千人計，是中組部牽頭的，給高層的外國人很多特殊的待遇、出境的便利、永久居留的便利、包括在華生活的便利、甚至入籍。

Liu Guofu: Generally speaking, the government has been continuously relaxing its policies. In 2008, there was a visa program for attracting foreigners with special talents. It was led by the Organization Department of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China. It offers a lot of special treatment to foreigners with talent, like the convenience of leaving the country, permanently staying in the country and even acquiring Chinese citizenship.

04年還有一個《外國人在華永久居留管理辦法》，允許他們申請永久居留, 剛才舉了幾個法規的例子。另外一個就是（對）“三非”的打擊，像廣東、浙江都做過，北京好像也不是第一次。

In 2004, officials passed the Measures for the Administration of Examination and Approval of Foreigners' Permanent Residence in China. Then there are also crackdowns on the "three illegals". Guangdong and Zhejiang province both did that before. So did Beijing.

馮欣：那您認為我們國家對外國人來華的政策未來會向什么方向發展？

Feng Xin: In your opinion, where will China's policies on foreigners head to in the future?

劉國福：移民政策的一個主要目的就是歡迎能為本國做出貢獻的人。你能為我們國家做出貢獻，我就歡迎你來，你做不了貢獻，甚至還是害群之馬，就反對你來。簡單來講就是這個意思，因為人流動可以流向中國大陸，也可以流向日本、臺灣地區。

Liu Guofu: The main purpose of immigration law is to welcome those who can make contributions to a host country. If you can make contributions to our country, we will welcome you. If you can't, and even do us harm, we will stop you from coming. That's it. People can flow to the Chinese mainland as well as to Japan and Taiwan.

還有和國際上相競爭，它是不斷發展和變化的。它是有彈性的、有競爭性的一種法律資格，不能簡單地要門檻高或者門檻低。能不能設計出或者制定出更精巧、更完善的法律制度去吸引我們需要的、能為本國做出經濟發展貢獻的外國人，而且也能夠制定出精巧的、很嚴密的法律制度去堵住那些我們不歡迎的人進來，這是出境入境管理法的宗旨。

Also, countries compete with each other on receiving immigrants. It's a changing and evolving issue. It's flexible and competitive. We can't simply make it easier or harder for people to come. Can we create an elaborate system of laws to attract those we need, those who can make contributions to our economic development as well as to stop those who are not welcome from coming? That should be the principle of immigration law.

馮欣：那從打擊“三非”外國人這件事我們看到更深層次的一個問題，那就是怎樣對待來華的外國人，那么對這個問題您有什么看法？

Feng Xin: Well, from the police's action on the "three illegals", we see a deeper question, which is how China should treat its foreign population. What do you think?

劉國福：人員的跨國流動是有一定規律的。越發達的國家，國際人口的流動越頻繁，占本國的比例越高。發達地區都（達到）10％至15％，一些北歐（地區）達到20％，北京現在1％還不到，遠遠落后于發達國家，所以它們是有些規律的。

Liu Guofu: The international flow of population has its own rules. The more developed a country is, the more frequently its population flows and the higher percentage of its population foreigners take up. In developed regions, the percentage usually reaches 10% to 15%. Some regions in northern Europe even reach 20%. But Beijing hasn't even reached 1%, which is far from developed countries. So, there are certain rules.

這個法的目的就是調整符合人員國際流動的規律，比如說外國人想到中國來，你就不能硬堵，不能違反人口流動的規律。該歡迎的還是給他更多的渠道，給他更多的方式讓他進來，不該進來的那一定要嚴格打擊。

The law is to help a country adjust its policies to best follow the rules. If people want to come to China, we can't simply reject them. We can't go against the pattern of international migration. For those who should be welcomed, we should offer them more opportunities, but for those who shouldn't, we must strictly control their arrival.

衡量一個國家的現代化、國際化有很多個指標。國際移民應該是其中的一個指標，因為國際流動就是人的流動, 人的流動會讓整個社會活起來。它注入了新的資本、新的技術、新的思想，會激活原有的技術、資本和思想，讓它們進行碰撞，產生新的東西。如果一個地區永遠是本土的人，那這個地區一定是保守和落后的。

To measure the degree of a country's modernization and globalization, there are many indicators. International migration is one of them. International migration is the flow of people. The flow of people will energize a society. It injects new capital, technology and ideas into a society. It stimulates old technology, capital and ideas. When they collide, there will be new things created. If a region is only inhabited by its indigenous residents, it must be conservative and underdeveloped.

Archive · 往期

Watching China’s budget
解析中國預算

How can ordinary people make sense of China's budget?
普通人如何能弄懂中國的預算？

What makes it difficult for graduates to find jobs?
大學生就業難，難在哪？

Why do we often hear stories about college graduates unable to find jobs? -- 為什么我們經常聽到畢業生找不到工作的事？

Does China have enough jobs for college graduates?招工難，難在哪？

What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers? And what makes it difficult for job seekers to find such employers? 是什么造成了用人單位的“招工難”？又是什么讓求職者難以找到這些雇主？

Does China have enough money to fund its pensioners?
中國有沒有足夠的養老錢？

How much money can we receive after we retire? At what age should we start planning our retirement? 退休后我們到底能領多少錢？到什么年齡應該計劃養老問題？

Should Chinese people retire later?
中國人是否應該晚退休？

In what social context is the government’s proposal to push back China's retirement age rooted? 6月5日，人力資源和社會保障部提出，未來會逐步將退休年齡推遲五年。這樣做有什么深層的社會原因？

Illegal immigrants: China's rise as a land of opportunity?
“三非”外國人：中國成為機會之地？

Is the increase of incidents involving illegal immigrants a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? -- "三非"外國人日益增多，是否意味著中國成為機會的土壤？

Legislating domestic violence in China: Concepts - 中國反家庭暴力立法：概念

Digest China explores the concept of domestic violence and the difficulty in proving it. 本期探討“家庭暴力”這個概念的本身和取證的困難。

Legislating domestic violence in China: Obstacles - 中國反家庭暴力立法：難點

Digest China explores some decade-long obstacles and difficulties in the process. 本期《解析中國》探討中國反家庭暴力立法進程中長期存在的阻力和分歧。