Transcript·文字實錄

馮欣：上期《解析中國》，我們采訪了一些招工的雇主，探討是什么讓用人單位難以招到員工——特別是理想的員工。我們采訪的專家說，中國產業結構和勞動力市場的變化、中國高校的擴招，以及用人單位和大學畢業生心理預期的不對等，都造成了用人單位的招工困境。然而從求職者的角度來看情況又是如何呢？官方數據顯示中國現有的崗位空缺數實際上大于求職者的人數，為什么我們還經常聽說大學畢業生就業難呢？在探討這些問題之前，我想先請您隨我一同去幾個招聘會上看一看。

Feng Xin: In the last episode of Digest China, we asked a number of employers what makes it difficult for them to recruit workers, and more importantly, ideal workers. The experts we interviewed said the changes in China's economic structure and work force, the expansion of China's higher education and the dissymmetry in the expectation between employers and college graduates all contribute to employers' recruitment troubles. But what does the picture look like from a job seeker's point of view? While official statistics show China's available jobs actually outnumber job seekers, why do we often hear stories about college graduates unable to find jobs? Before getting into these questions, I'd like to take you to a couple of job fairs.

記者：您目前大概投遞了多少份簡歷呢？

Reporter: How many resumes have you sent out so far?

受訪者：二十多封吧。

Respondent: About 20.

受訪者：大概四、五十份簡歷吧。

Respondent: About 40 or 50.

受訪者：投遞了——我自己都不知道了。

Respondent: I have sent – I don't know how many.

記者：這個工作和您的專業相關嗎？

Reporter: Is the job you are applying for relevant to your major?

受訪者：不相關。

Respondent: No.

受訪者：不太多。反正我實習這半年期間做的是跟專業一點都不相關的。

Respondent: Not really. The internship I did in the past six months wasn't relevant to my major, anyway.

記者：那您現在找工作遇到的最大的困難是什么？或者說您找工作的感受（是什么）？

Reporter: What's your biggest difficulty in finding a job? Or how do you feel about your job search?

受訪者：迷茫，越找越迷茫。都不知道定位了。

Respondent: More and more confused. I don't even know how to look at myself any more.

受訪者：感受就是工作還是挺多的，不過符合自己要求的還是比較少的。

Respondent: I think there are many jobs out there, but few met my expectations.

受訪者：就是有些具體的想法還沒有想清楚，自己以后的發展還沒有規劃好。

Respondent: I haven't thought certain things through or made a plan for my personal development.

受訪者：人家一般都要求有經驗，另外現在很多單位并不缺人，比方說你想進比較好的企業，這種難度比較大，就是比較出名、人盡皆知的企業。

Respondent: Employers usually prefer those who have experiences. And a lot of companies don't have vacancies right now. It's quite difficult to get in a good company. By good companies, I mean those everybody knows.

受訪者：我覺得那些企業應該給應屆生一些機會。因為畢竟應屆生經驗比較少，只有從基層慢慢地培養才可以，但是有一些企業并不太想培養應屆生。

Respondent: I think companies should give college graduates an opportunity. Since graduates don't have much experience, they need to start from the basics and learn gradually. But some companies aren't willing to train college graduates.

受訪者：現在大概有50%以上的人都在跨專業擇業，在跨專業之后，他們就有一個很茫然的狀態，我現在就處于這種狀態當中。造成這種現象的原因，我認為就是在高考的時候，他們選擇專業的時候，就不知道自己喜歡什么，也不知道這個專業以后的前景是什么。

Respondent: More than 50 percent of job seekers nowadays choose jobs irrelevant to their majors. If they do that, they will feel very confused. I am in that kind of a mode right now. The reason behind this phenomenon, I think, is that when we were taking our college entrance exams and choosing majors, we didn't know what our passion was. Nor did we know the prospect of the majors we chose.

受訪者：我覺得還是許多大學的教育跟現在社會的一些方面有點脫節。

Respondent: I think our higher education is somewhat out of line with the society.

記者：您在找工作過程中，有哪些素質是用人單位要求的，但是您認為自己本身卻不具備的？

Reporter: While you are looking for a job, what are some of the qualities you find employers value but you are not equipped with?

受訪者：現在不管你做什么，都需要有很強烈的團隊精神，還有就是你的專業基本素質。

Respondent: Whatever you do, you need to have a strong team spirit, as well as some basic professional skills.

受訪者：其實就是一個經驗、熟練度唄。

Respondent: Level of experience.

受訪者：應變能力啊，或者是自己的營銷能力，口才這方面的（要求）應該會比較多。

Respondent: Adaptability and marketing skills. Also, speech skills.

受訪者：就是親和力，溝通能力特別強。

Respondent: People skills and strong communication skills.

記者：如果讓您用一個詞來形容找工作，您會用哪個詞？

Reporter: Which word would you use to describe your job search?

受訪者：茫然。

Respondent: Confused.

受訪者：驚險。

Respondent: Thrilling.

受訪者：雜、亂、多。

Respondent: Complex, chaotic and overwhelming.

受訪者：任重而道遠。

Respondent: Still a long way to go.

馮欣：對于剛離校的大學畢業生看來勞動力市場又是什么情況呢？中國政府也剛剛公布，2012年第二季度國內生產總值的增長速度下降到了7.6%， 為三年來的最低值。7月25日，我參加了人力資源和社會保障部召開的季度新聞發布會。

Feng Xin: How does China's job market look to graduates who just left college, given the fact that the Chinese government just announced the country's GDP growth slowed to a three-year low of 7.6 percent in the second quarter of 2012. On July 25, I attended the quarterly press conference held by the Ministry of Human Resources and Social Security.

尹成基：今年以來，正如你所說的，我國的經濟按照宏觀調控的預期，增速有所趨緩，在東部地區表現比較明顯，城鎮新增就業的增長有下降的趨勢。但是，中西部地區，城鎮就業的人數都保持了比較強勁的增長。

Yin Chengji: Starting this year, as you said, our economic growth has slowed down as the country's macro-control policy planned. This has affected East China regions in particular. The number of new jobs in cities tends to go down. But in Central and West China, new jobs are still growing steadily.

新聞發言人說，找工作的人在2012年下半年將會感到壓力，因為大量的新增勞動力將涌入市場。第二，用人單位會對技術工人的需求將進一步增大，而勞動力市場又無法供應足夠的技工。

The spokesperson said the second half of 2012 will be particularly stressful on job seekers, since a large number of new workers will flood into the job market. Secondly, employers will be seeking a growing number of skilled workers, of which there is a shortage.

2011年，用人單位共招聘人員近2070萬次，有1960萬人求職。也就是說，每100個求職者相對應的崗位是106個。2012年第一季度，這一比例上升至100比108，這些數據來自人力資源和社會保障部對全國100多個城市勞動市場的檢測。80%的用人單位對求職者的文化程度有要求。大部分要求求職者有高中文化程度，在這38.5%中，有超過60%的用人單位要求中等職業技術學歷。在所有對文化程度有要求的用人單位中，只有8.5%要求求職者有大學學歷。

In 2011, China provided nearly 20.7 million jobs for 19.6 million job seekers. This means for every 100 candidates there were 106 jobs available. The ratio went up to 100:108 in the first quarter of 2012. These numbers come from the Ministry of Human Resources and Social Security's job market monitoring of about 100 Chinese cities.Eighty-eight percent of employers have specific education requirements for job candidates. Many require a high school education. Of that 38.5 percent, more than 60 percent require professional diplomas. Of employers who do have education requirements, only 8.5 percent require university diplomas or bachelor's degrees.

三月，一家獨立研究機構，麥可思研究院，對中國2000多所大學的25萬名大學畢業生進行了問卷調查。根據麥可思的研究報告，2011年，中國有600多萬名大學畢業生，其中90.2%在畢業后6個月找到了工作。但是這家機構還發現，在已經找到工作的這些大學畢業生中，有14%的人從事著與自己專業不相關的職業，并處于當地月收入最低的25%的人群中。

In March, My China Occupational Skills, or MyCOS, an independent research institute, conducted a survey of more than 250,000 college graduates from more than 2,000 Chinese universities and colleges. According to MyCOS, China had 6 million college graduates in 2011, and 90.2 percent of them found jobs six months after they graduated. However, the institute estimates that 14 percent of these employed college graduates are working in fields irrelevant to their majors and in the bottom 25 percent in terms of income in their local regions.

麥可思將大專院校的專業分為紅牌、黃牌和綠牌專業。紅牌專業失業率最高，月收入最低而且就業滿意度最低；綠牌專業的所有這些指標都是最佳的；黃牌專業居中。根據麥可思的排名，紅牌專業包括很多熱門的專業，如動畫、法學、生物技術、生物科學與工程、英語以及國際經濟與貿易等。黃牌專業包括計算機科學與技術、藝術、設計、工商管理和漢語言文學等。綠牌專業包括地質工程、石油工程、采礦工程、船舶與海洋工程以及審計學等。

MyCOS categorizes university and college majors into red, yellow and green signs. Red indicates majors that receive the highest unemployment rate, lowest wages and most dissatisfaction from employees. Green sign majors, however, indicate the best ones in terms of these criteria, and the yellow sign majors sit in the middle. According to MyCOS's ratings, red sign university majors include popular ones like animation, law, biotechnology, biological engineering, English and international economics and trade. The yellow sign category includes majors like computer science, art, design, business administration and Chinese language and literature. The green sign category, however, includes majors like geological engineering, petroleum engineering, mining engineering, naval architecture and ocean engineering and auditing.

這些分類向我們傳達什么信息呢？我們采訪了麥可思研究院的執行院長郭嬌。

What can such categorization tell us? We talked to Guo Jiao, MyCOS' chief research officer.

馮欣：我們經常看到的一個現象是，一方面用人單位時常抱怨招不到理想中的人，招不到想要的人，而一方面求職的人又招不到這樣的雇主，這個現象是怎么回事？是什么原因導致的？

Feng Xin: We often see the situation of employers having difficulties in finding people they want, while jobseekers can't find the employers (they want). How does this happen?

郭嬌：這個現象其實歸納一下，我們常說的一種“不匹配”，就是你剛才說的這種，雇主他的需要和有求職期待和意愿的畢業生之間，他們出現了一種不匹配的現象。我覺得要從兩個方面來看，一個方面就像我們剛才說到的那些綠牌專業，尤其是工程學，不是所有的高校都能夠馬上給學生提供這方面的培養過程，然后馬上培養出這些行業所需要的人才，就是它不能補充這個缺口。另一個方面，這些畢業生，尤其是中國的畢業生，他在選擇專業的時候，他在高中的時候，他選擇的這個專業或學校可能是他的父母決定的，甚至是他的高中老師決定的，然后在進入大學之后，中國的高校有個特點，你轉換專業，或者說你退學再去報考其他學校，這種的機會很少，而且成本也很高。所以這些學生的不匹配可能在他填高考志愿、進到大學以后就已經發生了。

Guo Jiao: This is what we often call a "mismatch." Like you said, it's a mismatch between employers' needs and college graduates' expectations. There are two sides of the story. One the one hand, take the green sign majors like engineering as an example. Not all universities can provide students with relevant training in a short time and turn them into the type of talent that industries need. Universities can't fill in the gap.On the other hand, those graduates, especially Chinese graduates, were made to choose certain majors when they were about to enter college. Their majors were possibly determined by their parents or even their high school teachers. When they do go to college – there is something special about China's higher education – if a student wants to switch majors or transfer to another college, the odds are very small, and it won't be cost-efficient. Therefore, the mismatch might have happened as early as they took the college entrance exam and first entered college.

現在這種情況下，半年內畢業生的離職情況這么高，那么高校在想，我真正準備畢業生是他們的第一份工作，還是他們三年、五年、十年以后真正適合他們個人發展愿景的這樣一份工作？也可能是他們的最后一份工作。

Under such circumstances, when a large number of graduates quit their job within six months, universities should be thinking whether they should prepare graduates with their first jobs or the jobs students will have in three, five or 10 years – the jobs that really meet each individual's prospects. These jobs may also be their last jobs.

馮欣：那您的意見是什么呢？大學應該怎么考慮呢？

Feng Xin: What's your opinion? What should colleges consider?

郭嬌：大學首先應該跟蹤他們的畢業生，應該及時地收集他們的畢業生在應聘的過程中，甚至在畢業三年后、五年后究竟發展怎么樣，他到底需要哪一方面的技能，在他進入職場后最需要提高，但是在學校期間卻沒有滿足的一些基本的知識，核心的能力。

Guo Jiao: Colleges should track their graduates' job-searching processes as well as their career status three or five years after they have graduated. (Colleges should see) what essential skills graduates need but weren't equipped with at college.

如果勞動市場的需求與學生選擇專業的不匹配是從進入高校第一天就存在的，那么從事與自己專業不相關的工作到底好不好？我們在演播室里電話采訪了中國就業促進會的副會長陳宇。

If the mismatch between the job market's needs and students' choice of majors existed from the first day of college, is it a good idea to work in a field irrelevant to one's major after he or she graduates? We directed this question through a studio call to Chen Yu, who is the vice-chairman of the China Association for Employment Promotion.

陳宇：我不是很主張一定要和專業對口，反對學非所用。實際上學校是一種綜合技能的訓練，學校里面學的一些專業知識，如果到你的工作崗位上正好能用上那更好，不能用上，它其實對你也有幫助。實際上你在學校里面更需要掌握的是一些通用的能力，我們把這種能力叫“核心能力”。比如說，與人交流、溝通、表達自己，實際上職場上最難的事情就是交流、溝通、表達；成本非常高；企業內存在的問題也是這樣。你看交流表達、解決問題、自我提高、團隊合作，這些東西實際上比你在大學里學的某一些專業課程可能更重要。

Chen Yu: I don't necessarily think you have to work in fields relevant to your major. In fact, universities provide a sort of general training. It would be ideal if you could use some of what you learned in your major after you found your job. Even if you can't, your knowledge can still be helpful in some ways. In fact, it's more important to grasp some transferrable skills at college, which we call "core skills," like communicating with people and expressing oneself. Indeed, the most challenging task at the workplace is communication. The cost of doing so is very high. It applies to companies, as well. Communication, problem-solving, self-enrichment and teamwork – these skills are perhaps even more important than some specific curriculum.

如果通用能力，比如溝通與問題解決有時比學生在高校里學到的專業知識還重要，那么高等教育的目的又是什么？我們就這個問題電話采訪了21世紀教育研究院的副院長熊丙奇。他曾出版過多部關于中國高等教育的著作。

If transferrable skills such as communication and problem-solving are sometimes even more important than academic knowledge students learn at college, then what is the purpose of higher education? We directed our questions to Xiong Bingqi, the vice-president at the 21 Century Education Research Institute. He's written a number of books on China's higher education.

熊丙奇：教育分為精英教育和通俗教育，還有就是職業教育。進行通俗教育的學校，基本上是淡化專業界線，然后培養的學生的基礎能力和基礎素質。這些學生不是按照他（們）的專業就業是很正常的。我覺得隨著社會的發展，越來越多的學生可能會專業不對口就業。那么在這種情況下，專業其實只是培養學生能力的載體，所謂的“教育是不是浪費了，人才是不是浪費了”，如果僅僅是以專業和就業的對口來評價，這樣的觀念已經都過時了。

Xiong Bingqi: There are three types of education: elite education, mass education and vocational education. At universities offering mass education, the boundaries between majors are mild. They mainly focus on developing students' basic skills and qualities. It's quite normal for these students to choose jobs irrelevant to their majors. I think as society develops, more and more students will choose jobs irrelevant to their majors. Under such circumstances, majors, in fact, are merely platforms where students can be trained. If you evaluate the efficiency of education only based on the degree of match between majors and jobs, you are quite outdated.

馮欣：那您剛剛提到一個詞，“精英教育”，什么是精英教育呢？

Feng Xin: You just mentioned "elite education". What kind of education is that?

熊丙奇：這種精英教育不是培養所謂的精英的，它實際上就是進行通俗教育，關注的其實是學生基礎能力、基礎素養教育的這樣一些學校。那么現在這些學校被認為是好學校，集中了優質教育資源的這些學校。因此我們現在就形成單一的鏈條，從好小學到好初中到好高中，再到好的大學，最后到好的工作，那這樣的話，只有這種成才模式是被社會認可的。

Xiong Bingqi: Elite education is not to cultivate the so-called "elites". Elite education is indeed mass education, which focuses on developing students' basic skills and qualities. Now these schools are considered good universities, because they concentrate high-quality education resources. Therefore, we now have formed a singular chain: Students have to attend good elementary schools, good secondary schools, good high schools, good colleges, and (will eventually get) good jobs. Only such a chain of personal development is recognized by the society.

馮欣：您剛才提到通俗教育、職業教育、精英教育，那我有一個問題，我們大學教育的任務到底應該是什么呢？

Feng Xin: You just mentioned we have mass education, vocational education and elite education. Then, my question is: What exactly is the purpose of higher education?

熊丙奇：它實際上就是滿足不同的價值層面的需求，總體來說就是（使）每個個體更加完善。所以說如果我們只重視了高等教育一方面的價值，就是它的就業的價值，或者功利的價值，那么這樣就會使得高等教育整體的大學精神可能就會墮落，最后的結果就是整個社會會陷入非常功利的環境之中。

Xiong Bingqi: In fact, it is to fulfill different needs and values. That is to say, to help every individual become complete. If we only focus on one of the values higher education offers – that of finding jobs or its utilitarian value – the spirit of higher education will be corrupted. As a result, the whole society will be dragged into a very utilitarian environment.

馮欣：熊博士，我們采訪的一些大學生告訴我們，他們求職時感到很迷茫，說不知道自己能做什么、想做什么，您認為造成的大學生這種迷茫的原因是什么呢？

Feng Xin: Dr Xiong, some college graduates we interviewed told us they felt very confused when looking for jobs. They had no idea what they can do or want to do. What factors do you think have contributed to their confusion?

熊丙奇：我覺得這跟我們整個中國的教育體系和社會環境是有關系的。因為在基礎教育階段，我們很多的學生，他們實際上是被父母、被老師包辦代替，他們是“被規劃”“被管理”，沒有自主規劃、自我管理的能力和意識。甚至到了大學，這種教育也是蜻蜓點水的。我們國家教育部曾經發文要求，所有大學都必須開設大學生職業生涯規劃課，但是現在真正開設這個課程的學校還是很少，很多學校對學生的職業生涯規劃就是一兩次講座，往往就是宣講一些政策。那么這段時間學生對自己的個性的分析、能力的分析，對自己職業的定位，都不清楚。

Xiong Bingqi: I think it has to do with China's entire education system and social environment. During the phase of basic education, a lot of students are taken care of by their parents and teachers in terms of everything. They are planned and managed. They rarely have the ability and sense of self-planning and self-management. Even when they go to college, this kind of education is still just scratching the surface. The Ministry of Education has formally required all universities to offer career-planning courses, but very few universities have really done that. In many schools, career planning means only one or two lectures about some policies. During university years, students can hardly analyze their personalities, skills or career prospective.

所以有些學生（對于）現在要在中學進行職業生涯規劃教育，（這個）很好，但是覺得也沒有意義。我學了職業生涯規劃課程，我懂得了生涯規劃的重要性，但是回到現實中我沒辦法去規劃自己。我想選擇我喜歡、感興趣的課程，你學校提供嗎？或者說，我敢選嗎？因此，沒有這個選擇空間，就談不上這個選擇能力的問題。所以說我們一直是計劃體制下成長出來的，然后到了就業的時候全都是市場機制了，這個時候你要選擇了，所以說學生就不知道怎么選擇了。這樣的結果是什么？就是我們中國的學生，花了12年的時間努力地、辛苦地學習，進入大學，再到大學四年辛苦地努力學習，最后變成整個社會并不受歡迎的人，這就是我們付出的代價。

Some students think it's good to have career-planning education at high schools, but this is meaningless at the same time. I took career-planning courses, I learned the importance of career planning, but in reality I can't plan my future. I want to choose courses that interest me, but do schools offer them to me? Or, do I really dare to choose those courses? They don't even have any room for choices, let alone the ability to choose. We grew up in a "planned system". But when we are out finding jobs, it turns into a "market system". It's time to make choices, but students don't know how. What's the consequence? The consequence is China's students, who spend 12 years working hard in order to spend another four years working hard in college, eventually become unwanted people in the society. This is the price we pay.

Archive · 往期

Watching China’s budget
解析中國預算

How can ordinary people make sense of China's budget?
普通人如何能弄懂中國的預算？

What makes it difficult for graduates to find jobs?
大學生就業難，難在哪？

Why do we often hear stories about college graduates unable to find jobs? -- 為什么我們經常聽到畢業生找不到工作的事？

Does China have enough jobs for college graduates?招工難，難在哪？

What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers? And what makes it difficult for job seekers to find such employers? 是什么造成了用人單位的“招工難”？又是什么讓求職者難以找到這些雇主？

Does China have enough money to fund its pensioners?
中國有沒有足夠的養老錢？

How much money can we receive after we retire? At what age should we start planning our retirement? 退休后我們到底能領多少錢？到什么年齡應該計劃養老問題？

Should Chinese people retire later?
中國人是否應該晚退休？

In what social context is the government’s proposal to push back China's retirement age rooted? 6月5日，人力資源和社會保障部提出，未來會逐步將退休年齡推遲五年。這樣做有什么深層的社會原因？

Illegal immigrants: China's rise as a land of opportunity?
“三非”外國人：中國成為機會之地？

Is the increase of incidents involving illegal immigrants a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? -- "三非"外國人日益增多，是否意味著中國成為機會的土壤？

Legislating domestic violence in China: Concepts - 中國反家庭暴力立法：概念

Digest China explores the concept of domestic violence and the difficulty in proving it. 本期探討“家庭暴力”這個概念的本身和取證的困難。

Legislating domestic violence in China: Obstacles - 中國反家庭暴力立法：難點

Digest China explores some decade-long obstacles and difficulties in the process. 本期《解析中國》探討中國反家庭暴力立法進程中長期存在的阻力和分歧。